It is currently Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:23 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours

Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Treknology
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:07 pm 
MCGI Member

Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:42 am
Posts: 451
Photon Torpedoes.

Photon Torpedoes have 16 Yield Settings.
1: This setting is like setting off fireworks.
5: This is the standard yield on Federation Starships.
10: This setting and higher violates strategic arms limitation treaties
16:This setting would probably result in damage similar to what I list below for a standard 64.53 megaton bomb.

This is the destruction of a 64.53 megaton bomb which is the same explosive power that has been accepted for photon torpedoes.

Nearly complete destruction will occur out to a radius of 14.85 km
Moderate to severe damage will occur out to a radius of 31.76 km
Light to moderate damage will occur out to a radius of 120.06 km
Some light damage will occur out to a radius of 245.94 km

Now if that's the case, how come a Photon torpedo explosion isn't that big on the show? Here's where it gets into my own little theoretical stuff here.

Photon Torpedoes are designed so their power is channeled into as focused electromagnetic radiation burst rather than physical exploding power... so they're sort of like those things the cops are working on that they shoot at your car and the EM pulse knocks out your cars electronics and stops you dead in your tracks. The photon torpedo would do the same thing to your shields and drain them real fast and if the EM pulse gets through your shields and deflectors it'd cause major power disruptions on your ship, if the torpedo physically hits your ship it's not going to blow you up... sure there's an explosive element to it, but that explosive element isn't big enough to blow your ship to smithereens, but it could cause damage with the explosion and with the EM pulse in the right area of your ship to blow you up... like if it hits near your matter/antimatter storage or other areas.

Some of the info I've got here may be off a bit because they use the term isoton on the show for torpedo yields, which is not a real measurement.

Intrepid class carries 38 Torpedoes... 19 Aft, 19 Forward. The Intrepid Class does not have the equipment on board to fabricate new Torpedoes, the U.S.S Voyager had to construct fabrication facilities inside the ship in order to replenish their torpedo supplies during their time lost in the Delta Quadrant.

Lets compare that to the US Ohio Submarines that carry 24 Trident II missiles, each missile having a maximum 3.8 megaton yield... one torpedo from the U.S.S. Voyager would be 16.98 times more powerful than the Trident II missiles.

With that much firepower you can see Starfleet is a strategic prevention force in addition to everything else it does.

 Post subject: Re: Treknology
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:06 am 
MCGI Member

Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:42 am
Posts: 451
In the new movie Captain Pike says to Kirk "You know if you're half the man your father was, Jim Star Fleet could use you. You could be an officer in four years. You could have your own ship in eight. You understand what the Federation is don't you? It's important. It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada."

That definition is a little off, Starfleet is the Armada, the Federation is the government... but it's still accurate to a point.

Starfleet is a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada. But that's not all it does. Starfleet is the primary front line scientific and exploration arm of the Federation. How big would Starfleet need to be to meet the demands put on it by the Federation?

Let's say that in 2387 there's 33,741,500,000 Humans, not just on Earth but around the Federation. How big would Starfleet have to be to meet it's expectations? It'd have to have a higher percentage of members of the population serving actively in Starfleet than the US military has because of the science and exploration aspects. The US is currently at 5.1% of the population actively serving in the military. I would say add half of that percentage onto it again, so 7.6%, and then I'd round it to 8% just because I like rounding. I'll pick some random number and say 12 billion humans live on Earth and the remaining 21,741,500,000 are on other worlds. so about 1.81 times as many humans living off Earth.

There's also the populations of alien worlds to consider. The Vulcan homeworld according to 2009Trek had a population of 6 Billion. Because of Vulcan mating habits the total population of Vulcan would likely be significantly smaller than Earth, but they did have other colonies, so more Vulcan's exist around the Federation... I'll use half the number 1.81 I assigned to Human's for the off world Vulcans, so .905 times, so 5.43 billion Vulcans on other worlds totaling 11.43 billion Vulcans.

I want to do this for all species, but numbers aren't available for them all. But I'll go ahead and say Denobulans are a part of the Federation and that because of their breeding habits their 12 billion population on their homeworld is augmented by double that 1.81 number I gave to Humans... so 3.62 so their off world population would be 43.44 billion, totaling 55.44 billion Denobulans.

Andorians, Tellerites, Caitians, Bolian and many others would make up the Federation and of course would have their part in Starfleet. Now the Federation is made up of as of 2373, 150 Planets, I'm going to assume that means planets with their own recognized species or multiple species, and not the actual total number of worlds and colonies in the Federation, because if it was that'd be kind of strange... ridiculously low in my opinion considering the Federation is spread over 8000 light years.

So lets say the Vulcan population figures are the low end, and the Denobulan population is the high end and everything else is in between and there are 150 distinct members in the Federation with their own population levels, colonies, etc... So that works out to about 3,599,440,000,000 Humans and Aliens.

So Starfleet would be composed of:
2,699,320,000 Humans
914,400,000 Vulcans
4,435,200,000 Denobulans
279,906,280,000 Other

That's a total of 287,955,200,000 active Starfleet personnel of various species.
I know that sounds kind of ridiculously huge, but that's how my math works.

Next up: Starships

 Post subject: Re: Treknology
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:45 am 
MCGI Member

Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:42 am
Posts: 451
I'm going to be comparing Starships to Navy ships because I believe that to be the best real world equivalent.

U.S.S. Enterprise CVN-65
Complement: 4800 (Can hold 5828 maximum)
Officers: 150
Chiefs: 150
Sailors: 2700
Pilots: 250
Support: 1550
Length: 342m
Aircraft: 70-90

U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701-D (Referred to as "D" from now on)
Complement: 1012 (can hold 6500 maximum)
Length: 642m
Shuttlecraft: 37

Do I think the numbers for the D are realistic? heck no. Why? first off, the D has to have crew members on board for scientific and exploration purposes in addition to everything else... So I'm going to use some of my numbers established earlier for some adjustments, I will keep the shuttle numbers the same at 37 as a base for my adjustments.

U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701-D Adjusted.
Complement: 4153
Officers: 79
Chiefs: 79
Enlisted: 1427
Science and Exploration: 1617 (Officers, Chiefs and Enlisted)
Pilots: 132
Support: 819
Length: 642m
Shuttlecraft: 37

Lets say the 110 square meters is the same for individual living space on the adjusted D so it needs 456,830 square meters of crew quarter space not including guest quarters, according to the technical manual the D has 800,000 square meters of space for living quarters and mission specific facilities and personnel etc. and can hold up to 6500 crew so you wouldn't even have to increase the size of the ship for the extra crew space.

 Post subject: Re: Treknology
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:15 pm 
MCGI Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:52 pm
Posts: 15
I'm going to counter with one fact - it's the 24th century. Out of the 1000 persons living on the D, based on what we've seen, how many are engineers? During a crisis, based on what we see on screen, there are never more than 7 or 8 engineers in Engineering, at the absolute most. I'm going to assume that when battle stations are called, everyone, even those who are asleep, get their butts up (cause who can sleep through those sirens?) and man battle stations. Naturally, battle stations include engineers at damage control stations around the ship. And given the size of the ship, and the fact that weapons impact on shields like to overload power conduits up the wazoo, let's pick an arbitrary of 200 engineers max. Why not more? Cause it's the 24th century. A lot of systems are automated, including rerouting power, shunting breached power conduits, etc.

Next, security. Security on a 24th century starship during peace-time. Granted it's still a military ship (no matter how you try to spin it, Starfleet is a military branch.) Plus, given the D has a lot of civilians, including kids, and we don't want kids blowing up the ship, it may have more than a Galaxy class starship that, for what ever reason, didn't have civies. (Don't know if a number was ever mentioned on DS9, but a lot of people 'assume' that the Galaxy class holds 600 to 700 persons when civies are barred from being on board during war time, so assume 400 civies on the D during peace time.) Given sensors, sensor alerts, the fact that even kids on a starship probably have location devices for the computer to track, there's still going to be 'automation' with security. (picture it, you're a kid playing tag on the ship, you're running towards engineering, security officer sees an alert on sensors, and just when you think you're out of reach of the person who's "it" you run into a force field.) So, what the heck. I'll be IMO generous and say 100 security and tactical officers.

Command. 10? 20? meh, 20.

Starship operations. Lots and lots and lots of automation, but a lot of 'automation control' stations to man. 50 or 60, 100 max. Plus how much of operations and engineering cross responsibilities?

Medical. Based on what we've seen on shows and movies, plus starship diagrams that show what we see as sickbay is only one of several wards, let's go for another 100 max, and that includes the fact that when they aren't using a magic wand to mend broken bones and cuts, they're also the medical scientists on the ship.

Break it down:
100 medical
100 operations
200 engineering
100 security
20 command

520 officers accounted for, plus 400 civies, 920 out of 1000 accounted for, more or less. Leaves 80 starfleet personnel devoted to science. Not enough for a ship of exploration? Don't forget the 400 civies. Again based on what we've seen on screen, I'm going to assume that out of 400, 100 to 150 are children, at most. A few of those adult civies are then for 'services' (Mr Mott, Guinan, etc.) but only a few given what we saw in TNG. The rest - scientists. Even Keiko was a scientists, a botanist to be exact. And because of how all military organizations have worked over the last 5000 years, civilians are only going to be involved in military projects if they are contributing to the mission. In this case, exploration. Any Starfleet officer allowed to bring his family onboard probably would only be allowed to do so if the civilian family member could contribute to the mission in some way. Of course, mom and dad both? Gotta bring the kids, so that's why there's 150 kids or so.

And believe me, that's more than enough scientists. On a ship with diagnostic stations, computer simulation capabilities beyond anything we have today, 'sensors' that require very little actual lab work (IE they don't need to use chemical tests to determine what something is made up of, that's what tricorders are for, etc etc etc) I think that's a generous number of scientists. There definitely is such a thing as too many 'brains' working on one project or, at the very least, one aspect of a project. Much of science today is the manual tasks of setting up experiments (IE manual labor) and analyzing the results (math, etc.) with only a little devoted to actual experimentation. Hell, again given what we've seen on TNG, such as the episode in which Picard falls in love with one of those scientists, a 'critical' and precise experiment was only being operated by 6 or 7 scientists.

In short, I believe 1000 crew members on a 24th century federation starship the size of the D is more than believable. And also, as we've seen, when the D went to check out some unique phenomenon that they didn't already have scientific specialists for, they'd stop by a starbase or planet and pick one up. Literally, one. Almost never more than one specialist for some wacky scientific observation or experiment.

In fact, using on-screen 'canon' we went from the Constitution class, approximately 300 meters in length (less than for original, more than for refit) with 21 decks or 23 (again, original vs refit) both of which had over 400 crew members, to the Intrepid class, 340 meters in length, 15 decks tall, but only 150 or so crew members (these numbers come from, generally good numbers based on his explanations of how he arrives at these numbers, most often from canon references, IE show and movie numbers.) That indicates huge advances in starship automation in only 100 years.

Anywho....I think it's safe to say we're pretty big geeks, putting this much analysis into a science fiction show. But isn't it fun? :)


"To quote a great man, "Wait till they get a load of me."" -- Red Mist, Kick Ass

 Post subject: Re: Treknology
PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:42 pm 
MCGI Member

Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:42 am
Posts: 451
I was writing a nice long reply to this and I accidentally closed my browser window.

Now, as far as the Enterprise D Crew goes, I don't think it's realistic to look at what we see on TV as an accurate portrayal of how many people are on board at any given time, even with automation, they always had people there working.

Now what do you need to operate the ship?

Commanding Officer
Executive Officer
Control/Navigation Officer (Pilot)
Operations Officer
Tactical Officer

The bridge also has additional science, environmental, mission ops, and engineering consoles which aren't always used.

MEDICAL (From the TNG Technical Manual)
Physicians: 4
Medical Technicians: 3
Registered Nurses: 12
Research and Laboratory Personnel: 8-12

We've seen the Chief Operations Officer.
There would have to be Operations Officers in other areas of the ship as well, who looks after Cargo concerns and all that fun stuff.
We've also seen Mission Operations Officers.

We've seen a number of different engineering positions in the series
Chief Engineer
Assistant Chief Engineer
Systems Diagnostic Engineer
Warp Field Dynamics Specialist
Transporter Technicians

Chief of Security, who is also the main tactical officer.
There's also a number of Security Officers trained as tactical officers and some officers that are not.
Probably the majority of the Security crews on a starship would be enlisted crewmen and not officers.

SCIENCE (Yes you would need all of these positions for an exploration mission)
On the series we've seen a number of positions in the science department
Archaeology and Anthropology: Yeah, we know from the show there's always these guys hanging around.
Biological Sciences: This would include zoologists, biologists and other sciences
Planetary Sciences: This would include Geologists, Geochemists, Oceanographers, Meteorologists, and whatnot, they'd study and map planets, planetoids, asteroids and whatever else.
Stellar Sciences: This would probably include astronomers and astrophysicists and people working on mapping and cataloging and all that fun stuff.

I still don't think 1012 or whatever it is is a big enough crew, even with automation, and I never will.

The kind of reduction for a Galaxy class starship compared to modern day ships is ridiculous, especially with the need for science and exploration personnel, you can't be an exploration ship and have to run back for specialists every time you find something new.

A ship of exploration which doubles as a military vessel needs those scientists, those military personnel, those engineers, etc.

The reason you don't see lots of people in main engineering during a crisis is because main engineering isn't the be all end all of the engineering department.

You'd have to have people working in the impulse control rooms, weapons control rooms, transporter rooms, computer cores, deflector control rooms, shield control rooms, strategically positioned maintenance crews, etc.

You'd have Tactical Officers and Science Officers from the security department spread around the ship at sensor monitoring stations, weapons control, and stationed around various key areas.

Even on regular duty shifts you'd have those things going on.

So I'm going to stick with my high number and consider the low 1012 number to be due to the idiocy of the show creators.

Automation can only get you so far.

 Post subject: Re: Treknology
PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:02 pm 
MCGI Member

Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:42 am
Posts: 451
I feel the need to break down the 1000ish number in great depth so I'm going to open up my word processor and start making stuff work.

 Post subject: Re: Treknology
PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:07 am 
MCGI Member

Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:42 am
Posts: 451

This is related to crew numbers, because having just one Academy location on Earth would limit the number of graduates to enter service, even if the Galaxy class is an understaffed ship of 1000, you'd still have the 288 billion active Starfleet members and that number I'm not going to negotiate.

So where are all these Academies located? (First Appearance/Mention in Brackets)
San Francisco, California, Earth (Wrath of Khan)
Marseilles, France, Earth (VOY: Non Sequitur)
Beta Aquilae II (TNG: Eye of the Beholder)
Beta Ursae Minor II (TNG: Eye of the Beholder)
Psi Upsilon III (TNG: Eye of the Beholder)

There are also Starfleet Technical Services Academies.

They also operate flight ranges

There has also been Relva VII which had a facility used for testing applicants for entrance into the Academy, although it's not specified to be a campus or anything like that.

Not all officers attend a 4 year Starfleet Academy program so there would have to be programs for these officers to get in as officers, that would likely be some form of crash course on Starfleet operations and whatever else they need to know.
Just like not all enlisted personnel would need to be completely trained by Starfleet, they too would attend similar crash courses.

I don't think Starfleet Academy in San Francisco is even the biggest of the Academies, just that it's the one most of the Earth born humans attend, and since the shows are mostly Earth Born humans that's where the majority of them graduate from.

Plus I think Starfleet with 288 billion personnel would have to graduate about 1.05 billion officers each year to keep up with people coming and going, that number doesn't include the commissioning of members trained by non-Starfleet schools.

So I'd say each Academy location would average about 2000 graduates each year that'd mean you'd need 525,000 Academy locations around the Federation.

And no I don't find these numbers unrealistic or too big.

 Post subject: Re: Treknology
PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:59 am 
MCGI Member

Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:42 am
Posts: 451
Now, as for number of ships in Starfleet...
Let's take a look at how many ships the US Navy currently operates.

10 Nimitz Class Aircraft Carriers: 5680 Crew Each
1 Enterprise Class Aircraft Carrier: 5828 Crew
22 Ticonderoga Class Cruisers: 400 Crew Each
56 Arleigh Burke Class Destroyers: 323 Crew Each
1 Spruance Class Destroyer: 334 Crew
1 Freedom Class Littoral: 140 Crew
1 Independence Class Littoral Combat Ship: 70 Crew
22 Oliver Hazard Perry Class Frigates: 176 Crew
18 Ohio Class Submarines: 155 Crew
7 Virginia Class Submarines: 134 Crew
3 Seawolf Class Submarines: 140 Crew
44 Los Angeles Class Submarines: 129 Crew
8 Wasp Class Amphibious Assault Craft: 1108 Crew, 1894 Marines
2 Tarawa Class Amphibious Assault Craft: 916 Crew, 1900 Marines
5 San Antonio Class Amphibious Transport Docks: 361 Crew, 699 Landing
4 Harpers Ferry Class Amphibious Transport Docks: 413 Crew, 400 Landing
8 Whidbey Island Class Amphibious Transport Docks: 413 Crew, 500 Marines
4 Austin Class Amphibious Transport Docks: 420 Crew, 900 Marines
14 Avenger Class Mine Countermeasures Ships: 84 Crew
10 Cyclone Class Patrol Ships: 28 Crew
That's a big list eh?

124277 people of their 330729 Navy are assigned as ship crews at any given time... if it's like the Canadian Navy they're assigned to those specific ships even if they're in port for an extended period, but I'm going to calculate a percentage of assigned to ship personnel based on how that 124277 number compares to the total active force of the US military, not to just the navy, so 1,477,896. So about 8.4% of the military are assigned to Navy Ships at any given time.

I'm going to apply that same number to my 287,955,200,000 Starfleet.

So 24,188,236,800 Starfleet Members are assigned to ships at any given time, some in dock, some not... that's enough for about 23,901,419 Galaxy Class Starships by the 1012 crew member concept. But we know they don't just use Galaxy Class Starships.

There were all kinds of ships in service during the TNG/DS9/VOY era, and size wasn't a determining factor in mission specifics... I don't really like that, I think size/crew/etc would have a lot to do with what the ship does simply because explorers and science vessels would have to house a lot more science crews.

 Post subject: Re: Treknology
PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:06 am 
MCGI Member

Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:42 am
Posts: 451
Federation Members

The Federation began as the Coalition of Planets

Original Coalition Members:

Additional Coalition Members:
Coridanites: They didn't join the Federation until 2268.

The Federation was eventually founded by members of the Coalition in 2161

All the Federation Members and the years that a few of them joined.
Alpha Centauri: 2161 (Was an independent Human colony)
Andorians: 2161
Bajoran: 2376
Bzzit Khaht
Humans: 2161
Merak II
Peliar Zel
Tellarites: 2161
Vulcans: 2161

It's important to note that Federation membership is granted to Governments and not to species... that's why some Human colonies are not Federation members, and some Human colonies are members but are represented independently from Earth. There are other species with similar things happening, like the Bolians who have a number of colonies that are not members of the Federation.

There are others that Daniels said would join the Federation eventually like the Ithenites, Xindi and Klingons.

So yeah, I think my 3.6 Trillion population estimate is pretty good.

 Post subject: Re: Treknology
PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:27 am 
MCGI Member

Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:42 am
Posts: 451
Let's go back to the Starships again for a minute... and back in time sort of... to the TOS era.
And consider the old TOS Technical Manual to be cannon, just because it seems to be accepted cannon for on screen references.

Heavy Cruiser Class
14 MK-IX Constitution Class (4 ships of this class were built to replace those lost in action)
16 MK-IXA Bonhomme Richard Class
111 MK-IXB Achernar Class & Tikopai Class

Class I Destroyer
20 MK-VIII Saladin Class
10 MK-VIIIA Siva Class
26 MK-VIIIB Cochise Class

Class I Scout
15 MK-VII Hermes Class
16 MK-VIIA Monoceros Class
9 MK-VIIB Cygnus Class

Class I Transport/Tug
15 MK-VI Ptolmey Class
15 MK-VIA Keppler Class
122 MK-VIB Dollond Class & Doppler Class

Class I Dreadnought
20 MK-X Federation Class

Now why do I bring this up? It shows something important about starship construction.... It's similar to the way they build Navy ships today.
They build them to replace aging ships and increase fleet size...

With the Galaxy Class we have these cannon ones
USS Challenger NCC-71099
USS Enterprise-D NCC-1701-D
USS Galaxy NCC-70637
USS Odyssey NCC-71832
USS Venture NCC-71854
USS Yamato NCC-71807

USS Asgard
USS Bolivar
USS Breedlove
USS Constitution
USS Excalibur
USS Hedderjin
USS Hood
USS Idaho
USS Jefferies
USS Madison
USS Magellan
USS Mukaikubo
USS Oraidhe
USS Sequoia
USS Trident
USS Saratoga
USS Scimitar
USS Sorak
USS Taylor
USS Tori
USS Trinculo
USS Ulysses
USS Valhalla
USS Valiant

USS Agrippa
USS Allegheny
USS Andromeda
USS Argo
USS Berry
USS Bonhomme Richard
USS C. Lewis
USS Cheyenne
USS Citadel
USS Constellation
USS Dauntless
USS Defiance
USS Dominance
USS Eagle
USS El Dorado
USS Endeavor
USS Essex
USS Exeter
USS Farragut
USS Formidable
USS Frontier
USS Geronimo
USS Goodman
USS Hornet
USS Jubei
USS Kongo
USS Krieger
USS Lafeyette
USS Lexington
USS Malevolent
USS Merrimac
USS Monitor
USS Oregon
USS Pequod
USS Perseus
USS Persia
USS Renown
USS Republic
USS Reverent
USS Rylander
USS San Francisco
USS Victory
USS Vindictive
USS Wasp
USS Yorktown
USS Zhukov

Now the TNG manual says it took 14 years to build the Enterprise D from the first weld, I find this unrealistic, if you take 14 years to build a ship like that it'd be outdated before it leaves spacedock.

One thing though, as they continued building more of these ships, they didn't just make them all the same, newer version had newer technologies included in them... technologies that would have been included in later upgrades for previously launched versions of the ship class.

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
© 2008
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group